The 'Let's Talk Ageing' Series

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Welcome. I'm Robert Fitzgerald. I'm the newly minted Age Discrimination Commissioner taking over from the great work done by Kay Patterson. 

And today it's a great pleasure to launch a new series of interviews with prominent Australians, thought leaders of our nation, in relation to ageing. And the series is called 'Let's Talk Ageing'. 

We hope that by having these discussions with prominent individuals, sharing ideas and thoughts we might be able to create a better environment for those of us that are ageing, a positive environment, and also to deal with some of the big issues confronting older Australians. 

Today, it's a great joy to be able to interview, as our very first interview, Emeritus Professor Rosalind Croucher - the current President of the Australian Human Rights Commission. 

Almost about to finish her term, and Rosalind was also Acting Age Discrimination Commissioner shortly before my appointment. 

So welcome, Ros. Ros, it's really wonderful to have you as our first interviewee. You've just recently come back from the United Nations in Geneva. I was just wondering what sort of reflections you've had on that visit, given it's your last as President of the Australian Human Rights Commission. 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Thank you, Robert. 

The visit was in the context of the annual meeting of the Global Alliance of National Human Rights institutions. There are 120 worldwide, and it's a very big group. 

We have business that we have to get through, but we also have an opportunity to focus on key thematic issues that concern us regionally and internationally. 

And one of those that came from our own region was the importance of a Convention recognising specifically the position of older people. So that was one of the themes.  

And to see it have prominence in that context indicates that it really is one of the issues of the moment. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

And as you and I are both at that age where we get to be called seniors. And for some of us we're going to become grumpy old men and women in our old age. 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Speak for yourself!  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

With your extraordinary background.  

But, how do you see yourself approaching old age or ageing?  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

We age from the day we're born. 

So ageing is not confined to a certain numerical age, although certain physical issues are associated with a numerical age. I see that with each year you get wiser, and I appreciate the physical things that happen as one gets older. 

But, age and maturity give you an enormous amount of wisdom. And I think one of the challenges is getting that alignment of what people see from the outside, to see the wisdom and not see, or not be distracted by physical ageing, but rather see the strength of years accumulated as wisdom accumulated.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, what do you think are some of the great challenges for older Australians? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Hanging on to their autonomy and agency. And one of the difficulties happens with what people see from the outside, and the assumptions that are made, and this sense of sometimes coming from a space of benevolence, wanting to help. 

But the wanting to help can also be a denial of, 'what do you want?' 'Can I help you?' 

Rather than framing it as 'what I can do for you because you need help?'  

Framing it rather as 'you are so wise, can I help you in any way?' Or, 'what do you want?'  

So, it's that sense of agency and autonomy as you age that can easily slide into this benevolence that can overtake and deny you agency and autonomy. I think that's the thing that I saw the most. 

And for the most part, it wasn't evil. But that excessive, paternalistic or benevolent approach can actually deny you the space for decision making, good and bad.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Yeah. One of the things that I've often said is that as we age, we become invisible, or less visible, and worse, voiceless. 

And in many senses, the thing that underpins both elder abuse and the abuse by others in our community is, of course, that loss of agency, as you said, that voice not being heard. 

But do you think there are some practical measures Australia needs to do at a policy level and at a practice level, to sort of moderate the risks that we see in elder abuse and in fact, that diminishment of agencies we've been talking about?   

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

There are so many things. 

I could see the lists going through my mind as you asked the question. I think that the starting point is always to assume agency and not to start from an assumption of, 'well, we need to make sure someone is there to be your backstop or whatever'. 

So in the aged care context, for example, if people are going into the appointment of an attorney 

under a power of attorney document, and then assumptions that went with that, that they were the decision makers, not that they were your default in the event that you needed that support, but rather they became the decision maker, which immediately assumes that lack of agency on autonomy. 

So, it was a flashpoint for those kinds of things. So, all kinds of decision making, whether it's decisions about care, whether it's decisions about food, where you live, what you want to do, that you retain the primary agency in any policy or practise or process that detracts from that fundamental proposition 

needs to be looked at closely. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

You've got a conference coming up for Free + Equal, or pushing the particular agenda. 

Some people would say, you know, Australian older people have it pretty good. Now we know some don't, but the big question is, why do rights actually matter? And I suppose underpinning the work of the Commission and the push towards a United Nations Convention on the Rights of Older People 

what is it that you think is missing in our current system that would be rectified or strengthened by having a stronger rights-based framework?  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

A stronger rights framework, and particularly anchored in domestic legislation that aligns more directly with the promises our governments make to the world by signing up to international treaties. 

That stronger anchoring in law would provide what I see as a much higher responsibility in making decisions and designing policy, but also in accountability, so that decision makers can be held to account. There are remedial pathways that potentially actually lead to a remedy and not just some piece of paper that doesn't go anywhere. But that responsibility and accountability would be anchored properly in laws of our own. And for older people, one of the problems is the invisibility. 

And while one can assume, well, the position of older people in rights terms is no different from any other rights context. 

The problem with that is that there is that danger of invisibility and disappearance unless the position of an older person is recognised in the way that we recognise people with disability, the issues in relation to race, gender. 

If age is not singled out for its own particular recognition, there is the danger of invisibility of a cohort, an increasing cohort with increasing vulnerabilities that go with the physical consequences of ageing, sadly, that the dangers of invisibility can be compounded by an assumption that we don't need specific protection for older people. 

So, over the last couple of decades, as there's been work done on that potential for a Convention, many governments, including the Australian governments, have either sat on the fence or have been completely indifferent to it.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Why do you think that's been the case, not only for Australia, but generally? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

I think the answer is found in the very broad commitments that are already contained in the range of international conventions, certainly that Australia has signed and ratified seven, in fact. 

And the commitments in those general Conventions apply to older people as well. 

So people might argue, and argue well, the coverage in rights protections at the level of international treaties is very wide. 

But the problem, as we've been discussing, is the danger of disappearance. 

The danger of invisibility in the context of a population, where we are an ageing population, and that's not going to get less, it's going to get more. 

And with that, if we assume that all's well and dandy because of the coverage of others there is the problem of lack of visibility of the specific rights issues that apply to older people. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, if people want to become involved in this issue or become more knowledgeable about the issues that you've been raising, Ros, what do you think they should do or what's available for them? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Well, the Human Rights Commission itself is a wonderful resource of material through submissions that we make on a whole range of issues, the various inquiry reports and so on. 

In relation to rights at the moment, and the tipping point that we have in terms of embracing a revitalised human rights framework in Australia, which is the central point of our Free + Equal report  

and inquiry advocacy, is to see the work that we're doing, read the material we produced, join us at the conference, the Free + Equal conference in the first week of June which will be fantastic and really get interested and engaged in what these issues mean for you. 

Because everyone is ageing. It is not something that is out there in the future, a long way away. Ageing starts from the day we are born. We have people in our lives that are wonderful older people. You will be that person sooner than you realise.  

So, these are issues that are relevant and important to you, now and in the future, and for our country to make it a much stronger place of rights protection for older people. But all our people. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

That's terrific. A terrific way to end.  

And hopefully you and I, and everyone else can enter ageing in a positive way and our experience be as positive as possible. 

So, thank you very much.  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Thank you, Robert. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

These series of talks and interviews will come out on a regular basis by the Commission and we're very hopeful that you can engage in this process as well.  

If you'd like to find out more about this particular 'Let's Talk Ageing' series, or any of the work of the Human Rights Commission, or especially the Age Discrimination Commissioner, just go to our website and hopefully we can join you in the future. 

Take care. 

Question 

Who is an older or younger person who inspires you and why? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

My sons.

I always learn new things and get different perspectives from them. Watching them navigate through life, making conscious choices about what is important to them and then acting on those values inspires me. 

I hear about their challenges – some of which I have also faced, many I have not. Sometimes my experience and ideas help, sometimes not. 

But we can always share, and I can always listen. They are supportive of me and what I do. They challenge me and it makes me think hard. They strengthen what I know - that building understanding and connection across generations helps challenge ageism.

Question

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

Ageism is a real barrier to ageing well. 

Ageism stems from deeply held, often unquestioned negative beliefs about what it means to get older and about older people.

Ageism is pervasive and highly tolerated. Ageism is in ourselves - what we tell ourselves and how we feel about getting older. Ageism is in our relationships and in our institutions.

Ageism has devastating impacts on our health, our financial security, our sense of relevance and participation, and our control over life decisions. Ageism leads to exclusion, discrimination, mistreatment and inequity, and diminishes our rights and autonomy.  

Ageism can make us, and our concerns, invisible.

Question

Tell us about EveryAge Counts and what it is doing to address these challenges. 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

EveryAGE Counts is Australia’s national coalition-led, grassroots movement of individuals and organisations dedicated to highlighting the social, economic and civic impacts of ageism experienced by older people, and building an Australia that no longer tolerates it.

EveryAGE Counts builds public awareness to challenge these harmful attitudes, stereotypes, assumptions and discrimination. Our vision is “a society where every person is valued, connected and respected regardless of age”.  

We work together to positively change the way we think act and feel about ageing and older people, and to set the foundations for current and future generations to age well. 

Question

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

Visit our website https://www.everyagecounts.org.au/ and take the pledge to stand for a world without ageism. 

Join with the many individuals, organisations, Local Councils, think tanks, peak groups and service providers to build an Australia without ageism and stay connected with our growing movement. 

Take the ‘Am I ageist?’ quiz, share our resources and start a discussion - with your family, in your community or workplace. Join us on Ageism Awareness Day on 9 October. 

The more we name ageism and call it out the better chance we have of drawing these negative attitudes, assumptions and behaviours out of the shadows, and creating a world where we can age well. 

Question

How do you see yourself in older age, why is this so?

Mr Murray Coates

I see myself travelling with friends and learning about diverse and interesting cultures. I always found travel an important way to learn new perspectives outside of my own. I hope ageing will still allow me to have this experience, whether it’s overseas or in Australia.

An important aspect of this is the sharing of experiences with friends. Being able to laugh, cry, and enjoy time with important people in my life will be crucial.

Question

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older?

Mr Murray Coates

Many people that are ageing who live in our community still have so much to contribute, but there are societal barriers that slow them down or stop them from contributing to their full extent. 

For example, a lack of accessible transport can result in people who are isolated and stuck in their home. Many older Australians are socially isolated, which in turn results in a lack of autonomy and independence. We know this can lead to additional physical and mental health issues, and premature aged care placement.

We need to empower older Australians and give them as much control over their life as they want.

Question

Tell us about the importance of community transport for older people and how the ACTA National Conference seeks to support this?

Mr Murray Coates

Community transport ultimately returns a sense of control over one's life and circumstances and provides significant physical and mental health benefits.

Many people have so much they want to do and contribute but their sole barrier is access to transport.

Community Transport gives them access to the wider world, and fulfillment in their life, allowing them to carry out daily tasks, get to medical appointments, run errands and socialise with friends. Even the trip itself offers social engagement with the driver or fellow passengers.

ACTA’s 2024 National Conference in August aims to bring together transport providers and senior government staff, to learn from each other, discuss new concepts and the future of the sector, including our CHSP Community Transport Pricing Pilot run in conjunction with the Department of Health and Aged Care.

The pilot is our main project which seeks to improve the sustainability of the sector and, in turn, the quality of service provided to older Australians. 

Question

How can others get involved or support this work?

Mr Murray Coates

You can support community transport organisations by becoming a volunteer driver which is an incredibly fulfilling role.

If you are part of the community transport sector, ACTA, as the national peak body, offers membership to organisations, providing a range of benefits to help navigate and improve service delivery and advocacy. For more information visit our website Community Transport.

ACTA operates at both State and Commonwealth levels. As an example, members participate in state-based advisory groups for the sector, such as the Victorian special interest group.  

Question

What does getting older mean to you, and why?

Mrs Val Fell

Getting older means that time to advocate for improvements in the aged care system is getting shorter. Now is the time to pass into legislation an Australian Human Rights Act to establish the foundation of an Aged Care Act, based on the needs of people in the system. The former will make the rules and regulations of the latter enforceable. 

Currently for me, getting older means joining the queues; for an assessment, list of services available, or names of providers and funds. 

At 95 years of age time is running out for me to advocate for the system to be fit for purpose and to obtain appropriate services for myself. 

Question

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Mrs Val Fell

Social isolation, lack of employment opportunities, income restrictions, homelessness and the stigma of ageing.

Question

Tell us about your work with the Council of Elders and what you have been doing to address these challenges? 

Mrs Val Fell

As a member of the Council of Elders I discuss people's needs, preferences and goals in the community on a face-to-face basis, in focus groups and in public consults to present these to the government.

Question

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Mrs Val Fell

Join the Engagement Hub on the Department of Health and Aged Care's website.

Keep up to date by taking part in surveys and listening to webinars on all aspects of aged care such as: food and nutrition, meaningful activities, clinical care, allied health, support at home, residential care and star ratings. 

Council of Elders members advise the Minister for Aged Care on the results of these discussions - add your voice!

Question: 

Who is an older or younger person who has had an impact on your life and how?   

Dr John Chesterman: 

I had childhood asthma when I was young. I recall, at about the age of 6, spending time with an older family friend, a man named Roy. He also had breathing difficulties. I recall walking on the beach with him as he told me about his coping mechanisms, which included remaining calm, not panicking, and trying not to think too much about breathing. I also recall his sense of humour, which was a good way of diverting my attention away from breathing. Those interactions with Roy have stayed with me for decades, and were a part of shaping who I am.  

Question: 

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older?  

Dr John Chesterman: 

There are some general challenges facing people as they age, which include the limiting stereotypes about ageing and the risk generally of being ‘unseen’ in the community. I recall the story of an older woman who took to waving a fifty dollar note in a store in the hope that someone would see that she was waiting to be served. There are also specific and well-documented risks associated with ageing, such as social isolation and loneliness, and of course the risk of elder abuse.   

Question: 

Tell us about the work you’ve been doing as Public Advocate in Queensland (and prior) to address these challenges?  

Dr John Chesterman: 

I have long sought to address the ‘safeguarding gap’ that occurs when adults are at risk in the general community. I completed a Churchill Fellowship report on this topic in 2013. One of the reports that I have released in my time as Queensland Public Advocate is a two-volume report on Adult Safeguarding in Queensland. Among other things, this report calls for the creation of an Adult Safeguarding Commissioner in Queensland, and echoes some of the key adult safeguarding reforms called for by the Australian Law Reform Commission in its 2017 report Elder Abuse – A National Legal Response. I am also a strong advocate for harmonised state and territory financial enduring powers of attorney laws and have released a ‘model law’ in the hope of prompting reform on this topic. 

Question: 

How can others get involved or support this work?  

Dr John Chesterman: 

I encourage people to read my report and the ALRC report, and to ask what their jurisdiction can do to improve the way that it works to prevent and respond to elder abuse. I also encourage people more generally to reach out to people who are isolated, and to devise ways of providing opportunities for marginalised people to stay connected with others. One reform idea that I included in my safeguarding report concerned the proposed creation of Adult Safeguarding Networks throughout Queensland. The idea there is that these networks, among other things, would facilitate greater local awareness of, and outreach potential to, adults who are at risk of harms such as elder abuse.    

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

Hi, I'm Robert Fitzgerald. I'm the Age Discrimination Commissioner with the Australian Human Rights Commission.

And today I'm pleased you're able to join us on this next episode of our series, Let's Talk Ageing.

These are a series of conversations with Australia's thought leaders in relation to older people and the ageing of Australia and raising many issues, challenges, and also celebrating the work that we're doing in Australia for older people.

Today, I'm especially pleased to be able to welcome Pat Sparrow, who's the CEO of COTA Australia. That's Council of the Ageing.

So welcome, Pat.

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Thank you for having me on the series.

I think it's a really important series and particularly on International Day of Older Persons.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So let's start with that, Pat.

The International Day of Older Persons is a day in which we celebrate older people right throughout the world.

But from your work in COTA, and your work generally, why do we value older people and why is this day such an important day?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

I think it's an important day because we need to make sure that we do value older people, and I think we don't think about it very consciously sometimes.

And I think days like an Older Person's Day actually bring it to the fore for the community, for all of us who are working to make sure that we are thinking about older people.

I think we do have issues in the country where we don't always think about older people, and that's what we need to really try and start to address.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And do you think Australia actually values older people?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Not as much as I think we should. I think, like most countries, we don't think about it.

We don't think about ageism and we see older people in a particular way.

And I think we need to shift that.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So, before we look at some of the challenges, how do you sort of personally approach ageing for yourself and for your family members?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Yeah, well, I mean, and that's a thing. We are all ageing. And I guess I'm approaching it the best way I know how.

But I'm conscious that some of the things that I do actually indicate the internalised ageism that people have. So, I still dye my hair, for example, because I've been told sometime in my youth that people won't listen to a grey-haired old lady.

So, you know, I think there are those things, but I'm trying to tackle it with grace and with style, which is what I'd like to do. And I think I saw my mother do that, my older sisters doing that. And actually being who they are.

And I do feel as I've got older that I'm more me than I've ever been at any time in my life. And I think it's important that we do that and we embrace it and that we are looking at the opportunities, the things that I still want to be able to do, as well as some of the challenges we have facing.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

What are some of the key challenges for older people that COTA is currently working on?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Well, look, we're working across, we work for anyone over the age of 50, across all of the various things that might impact on a person's life.

So we're active in the health space and the employment space, in aged care, in retirement incomes, and there's a lot of things happening in all of those areas. But one of the things that I've really kind of come to understand in my role is that ageism is actually at the core, core of many of the challenges that we're addressing across them.

And so COTA has started to be much more active in talking about ageism, calling ageism out, whether it's that internalised ageism, but also what we see a lot in the work we do is benevolent ageism. In care settings, the way health and aged care interacts and treats older people through to discrimination, that is, more in employment, where we see recruiters not wanting to apply or employ someone over the age of 50.

So we are trying to raise those issues and to look at what are the structural, legislative, regulatory changes that are needed. So we want to do the awareness raising, but what are the things that we can then do structurally to make sure that ageism can be managed.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

So in your discussions with the government at the moment, what would be the two or three key issues amongst all of those that stand out for you?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

The two things that are really, obvious at the moment that are really ongoing, things like aged care reform. And the thing that we're really pushing is that we get a new act that's based, a rights-based act, because it's shocking to think that older people don't have rights in aged care.

So we want to make sure that that happens and that we get that right and that people are respected and valued and supported to make their own decisions, rather than having people make decisions for them.

The other one is in retirement incomes. Government's doing quite a lot of reform around retirement incomes. And again, we're looking at how do we make sure, in the way that those reforms roll out, that older people can have a good retirement, do the things that they want to do in retirement and continue to be financially sort of able to live the life they want to live. And that's, you know, that's difficult.

We know the cost of living is affecting many people, but those are the two that are really hot at the moment.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And do you feel you're getting good hearing in the political landscape?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Yes, I think we are. One of the things that we would advocate for, though, across all of the things that we're doing is that we think there needs to be a strategy for an ageing Australia. We think that what happens at the moment, there's some good things that happen, some not-so good things happen, but happens in silos in particular, in particular portfolios or particular areas.

What we'd like to see government do is take a much more overarching look because the demographics tell us we're going to have many more older people.

So we'd like to see a much broader look across. What does government need to do to make sure that we can have an ageing Australia and people can contribute to that society.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

And if people want to get engaged in these conversations, these issues and the work of COTA, how could they best do that?

Pat Sparrow – COTA Australia CEO

Look, you can be a supporter for COTA. You can come to our website, COTA.org.au

and sign up to be a supporter. And we do with everything that we do, we try and make sure that we're raising the voice of older people directly.

So we do a lot of engagement, a lot of work. We recently submitted to the menopause inquiry, for example. We held focus groups with older women about their experiences.

We'll do surveys on particular topics. So it is an opportunity for you to inform our advocacy and to have your voice heard with Government.

Robert Fitzgerald – Age Discrimination Commissioner

That's a great way to finish.

Thanks very much, Pat, and thank you for being part of the Let's Talk Ageing series.

And for everyone out there, may you age well.